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 Location of wayside signs.
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kengprice

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  7:31:48 PM  Show Profile

I have bought some Blair Line railroad wayside signs, and need to know where they should be located.
I have just spent close to 40 minutes online trying to find a site with location information. This is for UP.
I have not been able to locate any with this information. It may be there, but not for me I guess.

Does any one have a URL of a site that may show this information? Help on this will be much appreciated.
Ken Price
Lake County Ca.
Super Empire Builder with radio throttles.
UP, MP, SP, C&NW
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/kengprice/?start=all

Edited by - kengprice on 2010 December 20 9:07:41 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 205

midwestrailroader

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  8:12:17 PM  Show Profile
what railroad?

Salt

Country: USA | Posts: 623 Go to Top of Page

kengprice

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  8:49:08 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by midwestrailroader

what railroad?



UP in1995


Ken Price
Lake County Ca.
Super Empire Builder with radio throttles.
UP, MP, SP, C&NW
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/kengprice/?start=all

Country: USA | Posts: 205 Go to Top of Page

midwestrailroader

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  9:07:29 PM  Show Profile
you are probably looking for an employee timetable .. but in the meantime - are these the signs?

http://www.blairline.com/vsign/img5.jpg


Salt

Country: USA | Posts: 623 Go to Top of Page

kengprice

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  9:09:00 PM  Show Profile
Yes, those are the ones.

Ken Price
Lake County Ca.
Super Empire Builder with radio throttles.
UP, MP, SP, C&NW
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/kengprice/?start=all

Country: USA | Posts: 205 Go to Top of Page

midwestrailroader

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  9:13:36 PM  Show Profile
Ok .. not all of them may be applicable to the uP .. obviously, the grade crossing signs .. crossbucks, near the crossings .. but you need to check what version were in use in the 1955 time frame .. the W is a whistle post .. on the engineer side .. just before the crossing .. the signs on the right - speed limits .. usually passenger and freight .. it varies by RR .. some of the others like yard limit are self explanatory .. derail - marks a derail - end of block .. this is where one block ends, and another begins .. you will probably get more info once the experts check in now that we know what you mean

Salt

Country: USA | Posts: 623 Go to Top of Page

kengprice

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  9:24:33 PM  Show Profile
Thank you Salt. I figured before I went and bought any more signs I would just find a site that had the info for UP. Like what could possible be hard about doing that?
As you said there will be some one with the knowledge that will happen by.


Ken Price
Lake County Ca.
Super Empire Builder with radio throttles.
UP, MP, SP, C&NW
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/kengprice/?start=all

Country: USA | Posts: 205 Go to Top of Page

nkalanaga

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  9:52:07 PM  Show Profile
The whistle post should be put where the engineer starts blowing for the crossing. This would depend on the maximum track speed as he would have to have time for the entire whistle sequence before reaching the crossing. Unless one has a long mainline, or very slow trains, that's hard to do on a model, and would have to be compressed.

MidwestRailroader is right about the others varying by railroad, and I'm not a UP modeler, so I won't go into them. I'm pretty sure, but wouldn't swear, that the speed limit signs go at the point where the limit changes. I do know that when the speed limit increases one's not allowed to accelerate until the entire train is past the sign.


N. Kalanaga
Be well.

Country: USA | Posts: 4452 Go to Top of Page

dave1905

Posted - 2010 December 20 :  11:58:05 PM  Show Profile
The railroad crossing and number of tracks signs (the left side of the sheet) go on roads at grade crossings.

In the center are grade crossing signs. A particular railroad will use either the X signs or the W signs but not both.

The beginning and end CTC/ABS are used at the ends of the signal systems.

On the right side at the top are speed restrictions signs (none of which match the 1972 UP rule book) and the yard limit signs (none of which match the 1972 UP signs, which are a yellow chevron with no writing).



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kengprice

Posted - 2010 December 21 :  12:54:15 PM  Show Profile
Thank you every one for the help. As I hopefully get more replies I will be able to compile a list with the information.

Ken Price
Lake County Ca.
Super Empire Builder with radio throttles.
UP, MP, SP, C&NW
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/kengprice/?start=all

Country: USA | Posts: 205 Go to Top of Page

jbvb

Posted - 2010 December 21 :  11:38:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage
Most (?all?) railroads have "standard plans" which show where signs are located, clearances for signals, structures and overhead wires etc. I have a set for the B&M circa 1960, published by the B&MRRHS. Following them for the UP 35 years later would be better than guessing, but less accurate than taking pictures of signs and making notes the next time you're out railfanning, even though it's 15 years past your era. Best would be to find the UP's historical society and see what they have in print or on CD.

James      http://www.faracresfarm.com/jbvb/rr/

Country: USA | Posts: 212 Go to Top of Page

Dale Jr

Posted - 2010 December 22 :  03:29:46 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by nkalanaga


I'm pretty sure, but wouldn't swear, that the speed limit signs go at the point where the limit changes.



Correct

quote:
Originally posted by nkalanaga


I do know that when the speed limit increases one's not allowed to accelerate until the entire train is past the sign.



Not necessarily. I have a UP rulebook (General Code of Operating Rules) that states to the effect that an authorized speed is in effect when the speed sign is facing the current of traffic and visible. An engineer can begin to accelerate before a speed sign, and must reduce speed and be in compliance at the time the speed sign is reached. I model (mainly) SP and believe that their rules were the same.

Southern Pacific did not have speed limits. SP had "authorized speed"-that speed at which a train will be operated over a particular segment of track. One mile an hour over the authorized speed and the engineer and/or conductor could be fired (and Lord help them if the train jumped the track while the train was operating over the authorized speed). Operating below the authorized speed was a great way to be reassigned to a yard switcher.

But this was just two railroads. Roads different than UP or SP could have different rules. Rules could also be changed if needed.



My world ended September 11, 1996.

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nkalanaga

Posted - 2010 December 22 :  6:36:17 PM  Show Profile
Ahhh...another reason to check YOUR railroad's rule books. The GN and NP didn't allow acceleration until the train was past the sign. The speed reduction rule was the same. Interesting!

N. Kalanaga
Be well.

Country: USA | Posts: 4452 Go to Top of Page

nkalanaga

Posted - 2010 December 23 :  12:22:59 AM  Show Profile
Finally, a definitive(?) answer, although it won't help with the original question. I dug out my father's "Consolidated Code of Operating Rules, edition of 1967" and looked up speed limits. It doesn't mention the UP, although they were one of the users of the Code.

He worked for the NP, and I always assumed that NP and GN rules were the same. On speed limits they are, BUT....

In both cases higher speeds take effect after the entire train has passed the speed limit sign.

In both cases lower speeds are announced in advance by a similar speed limit sign, with an angled board. But that is NOT the effective point of the speed restriction. On the NP the actual restriction is marked by a "Reduce Speed Sign, square with clipped corners" with the speed limit on it. This is usually 5280 feet past the speed limit sign, which technically is an "Advance Warning" sign. Many areas on the NP didn't use signs to mark higher speeds, instead using "speed zones" in the timetables or special instructions, and the end of the restriction is marked by a plain green sign called a "Resume Speed" sign.

The GN, on the other hand, used the angled signs for speed limits everywhere, and the higher speed areas would have a sign. But the reduced speed limits were actaully advance notices, like the NP. On the other hand, the GN didin't post the speed at the effective point at all! All they had was a diagonally mounted rectangle with black and yellow stripes, called a "restricting sign". It was supposed to be "2 miles" past the reduced speed limit sign.

Thus, the NP had two types of speed signs, but only used them where the speed was to be reduced, while the GN had a single type, and DIDN'T put it at the effective point. And the two roads were basically owned by the same people...

To confuse it further, the MILW used a single speed sign 3000 feet ahead of the reduction, and a "Resume Speed" sign afterwards, but didn't mark the point where the reduced speed took effect at all! The crew had to know how far 3000 ft was without being told.

So, what my father called the "speed limit" sign on the NP was actually a "reduce speed" sign, which could not be passed at a higher speed, while the more visible "P-60/F-50" type signs were simply advance warning signs, although he also called THEM "speed limits".

See why I went into bank data processing? At least if I push the wrong button the worst that happens is we have to start the program over!


N. Kalanaga
Be well.

Country: USA | Posts: 4452 Go to Top of Page

Dale Jr

Posted - 2010 December 23 :  2:31:16 PM  Show Profile
Authorized speeds were also published in SP employee timetables, which every train service employee was required to have in their possession while on duty.

Speed restrictions could be marked by a small square metal sign painted yellow. These could be painted with the authorized speed, such as "25". They could also be identified with a train order, IIRC Form X. (My Rulebook and timetable collection is in storage, hence I am unable to reference the exact rule.)

Resume speed was identified by a sign similar to the speed restriction, only painted green.



My world ended September 11, 1996.

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