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Author Previous Topic: Atlas 20 MSW Containers!?!?!?!?!?!? Topic Next Topic: Athearn 40 ft bulkhead different bunk ends
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AustralianTerrier

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  1:46:32 PM  Show Profile
Now that I got everybody's attention....

Last week after a LENGTHY thread about how this forum knocks MTH and gives free passes to Athearn, Atlas, Kato, etc. The MTH supporters made it sound like no matter what Athearn, etc. do the members will just suck it up and look the other way.

All I have to say is BULL!!!!

There is currently a thread about Athearn, that is kicking the company all over the floor. Botched paint, missing gears, blown circuit boards....I'm sure the list will get longer as the thread progresses.

About a couple of months ago I raised complaints about the detailing on the Athearn Genesis Milwaukee Road FP45's. I pointed out that a couple of the models should not have Mars light and that they should have rotary beacons. I was kicked and spat upon for saying Athearn made mistakes. The Athearn supporters in that thread were comparing what amounted to apples to oranges. Different railroads, models, and time frame.

It would seem to me that no manufacturers skirts are white when it comes to detailing and quality control. Some like Atlas do have excellent quality control but I'm sure they even have some duds. It happens in any mass produced product.

So will this forum continue to rip MTH for its DCS, toy train ideas and any product problems? Yes! Will this forum to continue to call Athearn out for poor quality control, botched detailing, etc.? Yes! Will this forum complain about issues with Intermountain? Yes! Will this forum question and express displeasure with Kato products? Yes!. Lets not leave our host, Atlas, out of the mud. There are areas on their products that could use a tweek.

You get the drift....NOBODY is immune to being publicly tried and condemmed when their products fail to meet the expectations of the buyer(consumer).

The question to the forum is as we openly complain about paint, details, price, running characteristics, etc. do we want to go back to "one size fits all" rolling stock or is the price paid for the product delivered, what is making people so openly unhappy about the models?

Think about it.
Jim

"It's a question of methods. Everybody wants results, but nobody wants to do what they have to do to get them done." - Clint Eastwood as Inspector "Dirty" Harry Callahan


Edited by - AustralianTerrier on 2009 April 05 1:48:34 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 2278

coal drag

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  2:39:12 PM  Show Profile
I still won't buy ant MTH till they come out with an "A Team" trainset complete with an SD70 ACe.


Country: | Posts: 1341 Go to Top of Page

atsfman

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  2:58:22 PM  Show Profile
I hate to burst your bubble also, but other than a few specific dislikes about (1) Athearn, (2) Atlas,, (3) Walthers (P2K), I don't have a lot of contention with anybody. I don't buy from MTH, my reasons and personal, I don't buy from some of the others because I don't need what they sell or I don't want what they sell.

I have specific issues with some DCC products, but I just don't buy from them.

In short, I don't get my pantyhose in a knot
over trivial stuff. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. There have been exceptions in the past, but I am mellowed, and have much more "stuff" than I need, so I might question a specific situation, or ask Atlas or someone else to produce something, but other than that, I am a happy camper these days.

I will not knowingly launch an assault on a company, even if I don't like it, I just won't buy it, which hurts them more than my words could ever do. What other forum members chose to do is their business, whether I agree or disagree.


Bob


Bob Miller
Modeling the Santa Fe
in Oklahoma 1989
http://atsfmodelrailroads.com

Country: USA | Posts: 2962 Go to Top of Page

Super Chief

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  3:15:57 PM  Show Profile
You must be going for the title "quickest locked thread" since the fun days of parkerlegend. Good luck!


Country: USA | Posts: 351 Go to Top of Page

D.Harrison

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  3:27:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit D.Harrison's Homepage
I frankly can't see any value to a handful of posters constantly stating what they personally DON'T LIKE. There must be some reason in their psyche why they need to keep telling us over and over what they don't like. This Atlas Forum is getting SO NEGATIVE. As some one once said, MODEL RAILROADING IS FUN BUT BASHING AND COMPLAINING ABOUT MODEL RAILROADING IS MORE FUNNER or words to that effect.

David Harrison



Country: USA | Posts: 2770 Go to Top of Page

therudycometh

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  3:54:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit therudycometh's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by D.Harrison

This Atlas Forum is getting SO NEGATIVE.



I agree. It's one thing to raise a valid issue with a specific product, and it's another to continuously chew out entire lines of products (i.e. Athearn RTR or Genesis) or manufacturers (i.e. MTH).

I don't mind hearing about Athearn's painting errors on an NS SD60M, but I do mind the rest of the thread with people claiming that all Athearn products are terrible just because they botched one paint job. Nor do I enjoy watching a constructive conversation about MTH's DCS system turn into a rant session of why nobody should buy their products.

Can't we just enjoy the hobby? That's all it is, a hobby. Some people get so angry about something that ultimately, they CHOOSE to do because they allegedly enjoy it. If these people aren't enjoying it anymore, then please, at least let the rest of us enjoy it.


-Rudy Garbely
http://rudystrains.com

Country: USA | Posts: 607 Go to Top of Page

Curt Mc

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  3:56:13 PM  Show Profile
Actually Jim has made some good points...

All manufacturers get criticized on this forum - and an overwhelming majoring of the comments are valid.

Those who would want such threads locked are just those that don't want to see valid criticisms of various products (potentially including those that they just preordered/bought or those that they are trying to hype because they sell them)

I recall one member on this forum who at one time vocally objected any time anybody said anything critical of Proto 2000 units - calling for every such thread to be locked and flaming away at anybody who made such postings (no matter how valid the comments were). It wasn't a surprise to me when I found out later that the guy sold Proto 2000 units at shows...

As to the point Jim made and question he posed at the end... I think it is fairly obvious that most modelers expect higher quality and no major mistakes especially on the products at the higher end of the price ranges. Some errors or less-than-perfect details are expected/accepted on a $10 car or $50 unit, but the tolerance for such seems to drop rapidly at higher prices. When somebody pays more than $20 for a HO freight car, or more than $100 for a HO diesel then a higher level of accuracy and quality is expected. And when it isn't delivered then it is only fair to expect some to try to warn others - so that they can make an educated decision about their potential purchase of those items.

And when somebody is going to have to dish out over $200 for a new plastic diesel from a new manufacturer to the scale, then many/most are going to want some assurances in advance as to the quality of what they are reserving. The arguments of "if it's bad, just don't buy it and keep your mouth shut" just doesn't work in the new business model of advance reservation limited runs when the dealers expect anything you reserve you should buy no matter how many problems it has.

- Curt Mc



Edited by - Curt Mc on 2009 April 05 4:04:08 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 5293 Go to Top of Page

Selector

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  3:58:50 PM  Show Profile
Yeah, are there no other topics besides things costing too much, my choices are better than yours, you complain too much, and so one and so forth, ad nauseum, ad infinitum...in perpetuam?

Lets enjoy a Sunday without the lectures already! Post a photo to the WPF thread or something.




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PRR 2-6-2

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  4:06:35 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by therudycometh

quote:
Originally posted by D.Harrison

This Atlas Forum is getting SO NEGATIVE.



I agree. It's one thing to raise a valid issue with a specific product, and it's another to continuously chew out entire lines of products (i.e. Athearn RTR or Genesis) or manufacturers (i.e. MTH).

I don't mind hearing about Athearn's painting errors on an NS SD60M, but I do mind the rest of the thread with people claiming that all Athearn products are terrible just because they botched one paint job. Nor do I enjoy watching a constructive conversation about MTH's DCS system turn into a rant session of why nobody should buy their products.

Can't we just enjoy the hobby? That's all it is, a hobby. Some people get so angry about something that ultimately, they CHOOSE to do because they allegedly enjoy it. If these people aren't enjoying it anymore, then please, at least let the rest of us enjoy it.



i agree .I have had problems with some athearn locomotives lately. Im Still going to buy Athearn . I personly like athearn but I agree that the hobby should be fun . i wasnt bashing athearn I was just stating the issues with some of the SD60Ms. Lets all from now on address the problems to the mfg instead of on the fourm. Thanks Michael Tierney



http://thoroughbredrrmodels.com

Country: USA | Posts: 278 Go to Top of Page

Anton

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  4:14:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Anton's Homepage
Look I'm not rich so I do like to know what is good and what is bad out there. I have found little problems with all the MFG'ers. The one thing I don't like is when 1 Mfg wants everyone to change the way we do thing for thier own good. DCC = VHS/Blue ray DCS= Beta/High dif dvd. If someone wants to buy a Beta go ahead but I will stick to my VHS
Thanks
Anton


NS man! Love those high hoods!!

Country: USA | Posts: 105 Go to Top of Page

Curt Mc

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  4:15:34 PM  Show Profile
BTW, as I look at the top/last 17 threads on this forum (excluding this one) I only see product/manufacturer complaints in 2 of the 17. How then has the forum become "so negative"? I would call it "as realistic as it used to be".

It's just the same old story... Positive news/postings are forgotten. Negative/controversial/critical postings are both remembered longer and have more impact. (That's why newspaper headlines are usually negative/controversial/critical)

- Curt Mc



Country: USA | Posts: 5293 Go to Top of Page

CSX

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  4:31:31 PM  Show Profile
Yet another confrontational E-Entertainment thread from the drama queen Australian Terrier. If you took only 25% of the time you spend on this forum dreaming up these augmentative threads you post and actually did some real model railroading, you would of built a 100' X 100' layout already. Do you sit at your computer 24 hours a day and think these threads up?

Bruce



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D.Harrison

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  5:10:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit D.Harrison's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Mc

BTW, as I look at the top/last 17 threads on this forum (excluding this one) I only see product/manufacturer complaints in 2 of the 17. How then has the forum become "so negative"? I would call it "as realistic as it used to be".

It's just the same old story... Positive news/postings are forgotten. Negative/controversial/critical postings are both remembered longer and have more impact. (That's why newspaper headlines are usually negative/controversial/critical)

- Curt Mc




Same ole Kurt bendin' the facts to suit his purposes. Fault #1 All topics that turned negative against a product or manufacturer did not have to have a mfg's name in the title for that to occur. Fault #2 What is the time span of the"top/last 17 topics"?

Of course you would call it "realistic". Has there been a change in YOUR "realistic" treatment of Athearn/Genesis products in the last two years as opposed to the last ten years?

What I mean is that you could state you have been more positive in the last two years, but if your over-all performance is judged, quite the opposite would probably be true. In other words, the time span is important.

David Harrison



Edited by - D.Harrison on 2009 April 05 5:11:54 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 2770 Go to Top of Page

navarch2

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  5:27:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit navarch2's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Mc

Actually Jim has made some good points...

All manufacturers get criticized on this forum - and an overwhelming majoring of the comments are valid.

Those who would want such threads locked are just those that don't want to see valid criticisms of various products (potentially including those that they just preordered/bought or those that they are trying to hype because they sell them)

I recall one member on this forum who at one time vocally objected any time anybody said anything critical of Proto 2000 units - calling for every such thread to be locked and flaming away at anybody who made such postings (no matter how valid the comments were). It wasn't a surprise to me when I found out later that the guy sold Proto 2000 units at shows...

As to the point Jim made and question he posed at the end... I think it is fairly obvious that most modelers expect higher quality and no major mistakes especially on the products at the higher end of the price ranges. Some errors or less-than-perfect details are expected/accepted on a $10 car or $50 unit, but the tolerance for such seems to drop rapidly at higher prices. When somebody pays more than $20 for a HO freight car, or more than $100 for a HO diesel then a higher level of accuracy and quality is expected. And when it isn't delivered then it is only fair to expect some to try to warn others - so that they can make an educated decision about their potential purchase of those items.

And when somebody is going to have to dish out over $200 for a new plastic diesel from a new manufacturer to the scale, then many/most are going to want some assurances in advance as to the quality of what they are reserving. The arguments of "if it's bad, just don't buy it and keep your mouth shut" just doesn't work in the new business model of advance reservation limited runs when the dealers expect anything you reserve you should buy no matter how many problems it has.

- Curt Mc



I disagree with part of your post Curt. "Quality" to me, (...as an example) has absolutely zero to do with "road-specific" details. I want the thing to run well over and above all else. It is 100% useless to me as a "shelf" model - detailed correctly or not.

Secondly for me, it must have at least some rendering of the prominent carbody and pilot details (missing previously on most Athearn products) which one can obviously see on a prototype locomotive.

Next,and tied to my first point, is that the unit be DCC-compatible as to BASIC operation. Can't consist an MTH with Athearn? Not an issue to me. I'll run the SD70's in like-sets. Not everyone's cup of tea but I can live with it. When the Athearn units come out, I'll buy those too and they can run in MU with other things.

Lastly I feel that from 2 feet away, it should look at least plausibly close to what the intended prototype unit looks like. Have the right anticlimber, railings that are close to right, the right number of fans, dynamics if needed, and a DCC PLUG. Example: I will not buy the Intermountain U18B because the P&W unit is not correctly done in large ways (to me)and the I do not like the side windows. However, it is a nice locomotive and if others buy them.....good for them . It's good that it is out there and down the road I may buy a few for my 2009 PC.

You see...I care not where the bell is, what the brake cylinder configuration is, whether the radiator fans are one or another type. I can afford to be that way because I freelance. I also realize that not everyone freelances.

The SD70's I ordered will be Penn Central. The MTH bodies look excellent to me. I spend 12-15 hours a day being obsessed with things being dead-on correct in my engineering business. So the LAST place I need to be so is in my hobby. I want it to relax me, not create hand-wringing and angst. I don't think people who are seeking prototype-specific models are wrong to do so. And...I and a huge number of people in the hobby are not wrong to NOT do so.


Bob

Visit the Providence Northern at:

www.providencenorthern.com

Edited by - navarch2 on 2009 April 05 5:37:34 PM

Country: | Posts: 2120 Go to Top of Page

Brakie

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  5:29:20 PM  Show Profile
I recall several years ago a guy said he cancelled a order of 10(?) Atlas C&O GP38s because the fuel tank and side frames wasn't painted..

Of course its easier to hide behind a computer and bash and cry then offer a fix.Of course that would be to civilize and makes one stop and think what the complainer models really look like.

Ever wonder why the great modelers don't post here?

Think of all the guys that has moved on..


Larry
Summerset Ry.

Edited by - Brakie on 2009 April 05 5:31:59 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 7537 Go to Top of Page

jbonzo1

Posted - 2009 April 05 :  5:53:45 PM  Show Profile
Larry, I too find the rivet counter complaints tedious. However, the complaints on the NS SD60 thread are mostly about errors that should not have happened in the first place. Upside down stripes and faulty electrical contacts and parts are problems that should be caught and corrected at the factory. Anyone can hide behind a computer and criticize, but why would you accept a model with glaring errors or operational issues? Would you accept a Chessie unit with a sleeping dog logo?


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