Print Page | Close Window

Baldwin Sharknose & Penssager

Printed from: Atlas Model Railroad Co.
Topic URL: http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38897
Printed on: 2014 December 21

Topic:


Topic author: andrejonc
Subject: Baldwin Sharknose & Penssager
Posted on: 2007 June 19 11:01:02 PM
Message:

Hello Guys,

Do you know if the Baldwin Sharknose Diesel, were ever used in Penssagers service?
Thanks,

andrejonc

Replies:


Reply author: joetrain59
Replied on: 2007 June 19 11:25:01 PM
Message:

Yes Andre, there was a sharknosed passenger version. Was it a 6 axle unit? The model # is not RF-16, but it escapes me. PRR had 'em and i think a few other roads did as well.


Reply author: Lou D
Replied on: 2007 June 20 12:04:12 AM
Message:

The freight units were 4 axle,the passenger units were 6..PRR was the only one that had them,they were called BP20's on the PRR,Baldwin called them DR-6-4-2000's..They were HUGE,much longer than an E8..


Reply author: jmlaboda
Replied on: 2007 June 20 12:42:21 AM
Message:

Ironic really... there were a fair number of the "baby face" DR 6-4-2000s built... but only PRR popped for the Shark nosed version...

Here is a link to a HO scale drawing of the Shark nosed DR 6-4-2000///
http://paintshop.railfan.net/images/lytle/rp20.html

Personally I like the "baby faced" Baldwin cabs better...


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 20 07:05:15 AM
Message:

I think the passenger sharks are among the most elegant diesels ever built. Unfortunately they were prone to problems and, by 1954, relegated to mail trains and reserve duty.


Reply author: brokemoto
Replied on: 2007 June 20 07:22:41 AM
Message:

Baldwin geared the four axles very low. B&O tried to use them as passenger helpers on Sand PAtch and they were not much good for that, evne when used with steam locomotives.

I do not think that Baldwin offered them even with a steam generator in the B-unit, something that ALCo did offer in the FB-1. EMD offered F-units with s/g in both A and B, except, of course, for the FT.

As stated, only the PRR had passenger sharks, they had A-1-A trucks. They were so unreliable that the PRR had to run them in pairs, in case one broke down, at least the other one could get the train to irs terminal. There are some rather comical photographs out there of paired passenger sharks pulling three and four car locals.

The babyfaces were not much better.

Thank you for your consideration and support.


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 20 07:35:55 AM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by brokemoto

As stated, only the PRR had passenger sharks, they had A-1-A trucks. They were so unreliable that the PRR had to run them in pairs, in case one broke down, at least the other one could get the train to irs terminal. There are some rather comical photographs out there of paired passenger sharks pulling three and four car locals.


Respectfully, I have to disagree with your assessment. Yes, they were prone to breakdowns.

However, they were purchased as ABA sets from the very beginning. The PRR wanted 6000 hp on every passenger train. And it took three units to meet that requirement with the Passenger Sharks.

While less hp was deemed necessary in later years, the practice continued of sending out at least two units on a train. Seldom would you ever see a single unit on a passenger run.


Reply author: Spikre
Replied on: 2007 June 20 12:12:42 PM
Message:


the Passenger Sharkes seemed to run just fine on the NY&LB in the 60s.
never witnessed any breakdowns or units in tow.
Steam Generators could be added to ANY Baldwin Road Loco.
MP had thier 3' longer Baby Face DR-4-4-15s built for S-Gs !!
Thanks Brokemoto,DGS-II says they had them,as does "Diesels From Eddystone",will add a note to them.
there also was the 6' longer DR-6-4-15 Passenger Baby Faces,but only NYC and SAL bought any.
the PRR Centepedes were Ordered as Passenger Units !!
and ran several years as such until the E8 Fleet bumped them.
GATOR2,GATOR1,GATOR2
Dr.B.O.von Winkle
9590


Reply author: brokemoto
Replied on: 2007 June 20 1:14:52 PM
Message:

MoPac never did add the s/g s to their babyfaces. They bought them with that intention , but never did so.

The babyfaces had room for a s/g. I suspect that the B-B sharks did not, at least not in the A-unit (the FA-1s had the same problem. There was room in the FB-1, but I do not know of any US road that had FB-1s with s/g s).

My suspicion is that only the B-B sharks could not accept a s/g, the rest of the Baldwin line of road power could, and sometimes did or at least was designed to do so.

Everything that I have read about the centipedes suggests that Baldwin designed them as passenger units.

And Jerry, what about locals? I rode on PRR locals that had only one locomotive, although it was usually an RS-3. In fact, RS-3s replaced the G-5s on Pittsburgh locals. I even rode on PRR locals that had NO locomotive: Washington-Baltimore MU cars.

Thank you for your consideration and support.


Reply author: FloridaBoy
Replied on: 2007 June 20 2:06:02 PM
Message:

I don't think Pennsy was that strict in using the larger Sharknose diesels for passenger only.

As a little .er in Sharpsville, Pa, I used to watch trains come in town on the way to Sharon Steel, just down the tracks from our family compound. I would spend hours watching first, the steamers haul in ore cars by the thousands, then they went to the large Sharknose diesels, with large sharknose diesels in the middle and behind the cabooses as helpers.

These were extremely noisy compared to other diesels used in shorter supply hauls or by the EMD switchers.

I know they weren't the shorter variety of diesel, as sometimes shorter sharknoses were used on some supply hauls to the mill, hauling boxes and flats of stuff, and I wondered how they shortened the same loco, in my little demented child mind.

Ken "Steamguy" Willaman


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 20 3:05:18 PM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by FloridaBoy

I don't think Pennsy was that strict in using the larger Sharknose diesels for passenger only.

As a little .er in Sharpsville, Pa, I used to watch trains come in town on the way to Sharon Steel...


A few -- four, I think -- were regeared for use as helpers.


Reply author: andrejonc
Replied on: 2007 June 20 4:26:52 PM
Message:

Itís me again Boys,

After reading your commentaries in regards to this particular diesel, I came to the conclusion that I wonít be able to use them for passengersí service? You are mentioning as an example the B&O was mostly used for freight, the model that I own is from the first generation whit the Road #855, 855X and the other one is NYC Lightning Stripe Road #3807, 3707.

They are E-R Modelsô, sold by Bachman. On the box they write approx. scale speed: 90 MPH, I had discovered that they were especially geared for slow speed, so it means that I will have to use them for freight service only?

I also own from the same outfit, a set of F7A & B Units NYC Road #1004, 3304. And of course they will be used for Passengers service, thatís for sure.

Thank you, from a freelance modeler and strictly DC.

andrejonc


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 20 4:37:53 PM
Message:

andrejonc,

The sharks imported by ER Models and now available from Bachmann are freight sharks. The passenger sharks were six axle, not four, and were significantly longer. Nobody has ever made passenger sharks in N scale, nor would I expect any any time soon. A few companies have offered resin shells for use on Alco PA mechanisms.


Reply author: Mike Kmetz
Replied on: 2007 June 20 4:42:33 PM
Message:

Andre, the NYC 1004/3304 are Alco FA-1 and FB-1 freight units.

Anyway, whether it be the Sharks or the Alcos - remember Rule #1 - "It is your railroad".
You can run whatever you want, as long as it makes you happy.


Reply author: Spikre
Replied on: 2007 June 20 6:57:10 PM
Message:


PRR also put the Alco PAs into Freight service by the early 50s.
but the Alco PBs stayed in Passenger Service.
CP may have had S-G equipped FB-1s ??
belive GM&O may have had a few,as possibly NH did ??
there were a few built besides Alco Demos.
GATOR2,GATOR1,GATOR2
Dr.B.O.von Winkle
9600


Reply author: andrejonc
Replied on: 2007 June 20 8:29:38 PM
Message:

[quote]Originally posted by Mike Kmetz

Andre, the NYC 1004/3304 are Alco FA-1 and FB-1 freight units.


Thanks Mike,

If they are for freight use, please donít shout about it, my little people wont know the difference or I will be loosing money, you know the green stuff that does not grown in trees?

Mike donít forget, next Tuesday I will be 81, unbelievable how the time past so fast and Bernie my helper, had disappear for the summer, well good for him I will take my vacation with my little people, there is so much to do, but Iím happy.

andrejonc


Reply author: Gavel
Replied on: 2007 June 20 9:30:19 PM
Message:

Vol.4 of Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial by John D. Hann,Jr features Baldwin cab and transfer units. Hann says the Sharks were designed for Pennsy by Raymond Loewy and that only 27 of the 6 axle passenger Sharks were ever made and all were PRR (BP20s). They were soon relegated to secondary service because of reliability concerns and served out their careers on the NY&LB where they out performed EMD Es and ALCO PA's in local service (frequent starts and stops).As Jerry points out the ER models are 4 axle freight units (PRR BF15s,BF15a 7BF16s) Nevertheless I put(rather Dean put) Gold Metal antennae on them and I run the hell out of them with freight and passenger consist. As my Grandchildren say-"cool",or"sweet". And not many people know the difference or can see the axles and if they do know and can see I'm happy for them if it makes them feel good to point it out-not going to burst my bubble!
Gavel


Reply author: Iain
Replied on: 2007 June 22 5:03:27 PM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by brokemoto


The babyfaces had room for a s/g. I suspect that the B-B sharks did not, at least not in the A-unit (the FA-1s had the same problem. There was room in the FB-1, but I do not know of any US road that had FB-1s with s/g s).




Looking at my shark drawings, I doubt even the Bs could fit steam generators.

quote:
Originally posted by Gavel

Vol.4 of Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial by John D. Hann,Jr features Baldwin cab and transfer units. Hann says the Sharks were designed for Pennsy by Raymond Loewy and that only 27 of the 6 axle passenger Sharks were ever made and all were PRR (BP20s). They were soon relegated to secondary service because of reliability concerns and served out their careers on the NY&LB where they out performed EMD Es and ALCO PA's in local service (frequent starts and stops).As Jerry points out the ER models are 4 axle freight units (PRR BF15s,BF15a 7BF16s) Nevertheless I put(rather Dean put) Gold Metal antennae on them and I run the hell out of them with freight and passenger consist. As my Grandchildren say-"cool",or"sweet". And not many people know the difference or can see the axles and if they do know and can see I'm happy for them if it makes them feel good to point it out-not going to burst my bubble!
Gavel


A BF15 (BLW DR4-4-1500) is not the same as the ER models RF16. The RF is part of Baldwin's "Standard Line." Internally the BF15 is the same as the babyface DR4-4-1500. Externally it is different from the RF16-panels are different, fuel filler is in a different spot, and some roof details are slightly different.


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 22 6:11:00 PM
Message:

Want a Shark attack? See the Passenger Shark page on my Keystone Crossings site. Shows the elevations and interior layouts, and 3 of the 4 paint & lettering diagrams...

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/index.html


Reply author: Lou D
Replied on: 2007 June 22 7:04:59 PM
Message:

How long did the BP20's last on the Pennsy?


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 22 7:20:22 PM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by Lou D

How long did the BP20's last on the Pennsy?



Approx. 1964. I'm not a student of the 60s, so I can't answer any more accurarately.


Reply author: Spikre
Replied on: 2007 June 23 3:20:04 PM
Message:


know that by 67 the Worlds Ugliest E7s were darkening the NY&LB !!
but 64 or 65 seems a likely date for thier demise !!
GATOR2,GATOR1,GATOR2
Dr.B.O.von Winkle
9617


Reply author: B_n_O_Hendo
Replied on: 2007 June 23 11:07:49 PM
Message:

"You get in the cage? Cage goes in the water. Baldwin Shark is in the water. Our Baldwin shark. Farewell and adieu to ye fine Spanish Lady..."

-- original dialogue from Jaws that was later modified


Reply author: keystonecrossings
Replied on: 2007 June 24 10:11:05 AM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by B_n_O_Hendo

"You get in the cage? Cage goes in the water. Baldwin Shark is in the water. Our Baldwin shark. Farewell and adieu to ye fine Spanish Lady..."

-- original dialogue from Jaws that was later modified



Show me the way to go home...


Atlas Model Railroad Co. : http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/

© 1709-2011 Atlas Models

Close Window