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DnHMike
USA
34 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2008 : 18:25:40
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Paul Cutler III I'm NOT stating that they are PERFECT in any way. What I'm saying is that they have COME A FAR WAY INTO THE FUTURE, as compaired to the OLD Stewart.......Heck we ALL make mistakes at least they are trying..
Mike
[;-xmas][;-xmas] |
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DnHMike
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 18:44:21
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Well this afternoon I did a little research on Hand rail thickness, Here are me results;
Bowser C628 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint. .023 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.001 inch
Bowser U25B Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .027 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.349 inch
Atlas RS-11 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .029 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.523 inch
Atlas RS-1 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .030 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.523 inch
Atlas U23B Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .031 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.697 inch
The Newest RS-3's with "New Handrails" are .021 with one coat of paint. not much smaller...........
Bowser's handrails aren't that bad! I believe they are 2 scale inches. Prototype is 1.5 inches.
At least these have the proper width fuel tank! These handrails are off by maybe one half of a scale inch. The Fuel tank on the Atlas RS11s and RS 36's are off by feet! and let's not get into the handrail size on the RS32/36 GP38-2 or NEW GP39-2, Or the Exhaust stack on a RS-3..
The point is just because it doesn't say Atlas on the box doesn't mean it's not also a great product! I think we as model railroaders are too critical of Manufactures at times. If they only released a product when it was absolutely perfect, we would not have half of the engines or rolling stock that we have today or even a Hobby! I just think it could be much worse!
Mike[;-xmas] |
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rdc_jay
Germany
1411 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 18:53:22
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Now Mike, keep that "we as model railroaders are too critical" to yourself. Not all of us are "too critical" and not all of us shoot down every new product that comes along.
As for the GP39-2 handrails you haven't even seen a production one yet, much less measured it so hold that thought until next May. That whole let's be fair thing walks on both sides of the street.
I, for one, am always happy to see new product. I might not buy it all but it's fun to look at. |
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John Mock
USA
968 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 20:12:33
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Actually, I've been watching the topics on the HO forum lately--and frankly there has been very little of useful substance.
It seems to my eyes that most of the posts have been bashing one or another manufacturer (and I may be as guilty as others).
When one scans just the topics on other forums, like for instance the n-gauge forum, it appears based on their topics alone that they have more useful things to say.
Whereas in HO it seems we have degenerated to bashing internet auction sites, MTH, Union Pacific and others who copyrighted their logos, and whining about coupler issues. Since so many posts seem to be generated by so few, it appears that the overall tone of some topics might be driving some people away.
The only posts I've seen that were really interesting, constructive, and enjoyable have been the Sunday photo fun...I enjoy seeing what some people can do.
Don't believe me? A very fine train store sales manager just said some very unkind things to me in person about the people on the Atlas HO forum...about the kindest thing was that we on here are "1%-ers"--meaning that we whine, moan, and b@tch about things the other 99% are perfectly happy with.
John |
Edited by - John Mock on 12/12/2008 20:20:04 |
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carrman
1168 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 21:07:07
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Yeah and it's the one percenters who complain loud enough that the manufacturers hear us and make corrections from time to time. Quoting Richard Hendrickson, "The rivet counting WILL continue!!" Your train store manager just gave you the typical "good enougher" opinion so many people seem to cling to. If it wasn't for the rivet counters, much of the quality product you see today wouldn't be here.
Dave |
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rdc_jay
Germany
1411 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 21:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by John Mock
Actually, I've been watching the topics on the HO forum lately--and frankly there has been very little of useful substance.
It seems to my eyes that most of the posts have been bashing one or another manufacturer (and I may be as guilty as others).
When one scans just the topics on other forums, like for instance the n-gauge forum, it appears based on their topics alone that they have more useful things to say.
Whereas in HO it seems we have degenerated to bashing internet auction sites, MTH, Union Pacific and others who copyrighted their logos, and whining about coupler issues. Since so many posts seem to be generated by so few, it appears that the overall tone of some topics might be driving some people away.
The only posts I've seen that were really interesting, constructive, and enjoyable have been the Sunday photo fun...I enjoy seeing what some people can do.
Don't believe me? A very fine train store sales manager just said some very unkind things to me in person about the people on the Atlas HO forum...about the kindest thing was that we on here are "1%-ers"--meaning that we whine, moan, and b@tch about things the other 99% are perfectly happy with.
John
John...another hobbyist I know who occasionally peruses the forum said something similarly unprintable. I find I just stay out of the opinion threads or keep it to a bare minimum (like the coupler one now). This one piqued my interest because my two LV units are in transit.
And Dave it's not the 1% who insulted me the most when I was in customer service who got that extra bit of service. It was the ones who were polite and nice who did. The rude, crude and generally insulting got exactly what they were entitled to and nothing more.
EDIT: And, now that I've thought about it more, how rude and obnoxious my customers were always seemed to be inversely proportional to how much they actually spent. In other words, the ones who spent the least were the ones who felt most "entitled". My largest customers were (almost) always the easiest to work with. |
Edited by - rdc_jay on 12/13/2008 07:03:03 |
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mopsou1
256 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 21:50:41
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If a honest comment about the looks of the handrails is bashing, then thats crazy. I thought the model looked awesome. But handrails continue to be the weakest spot on many manufactures model.
As far as topics on forum, go for it. Everybody is free to start a new topic, what should that be? Everything runs in cycles. This site is no different than anyplace else. |
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John Mock
USA
968 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 00:50:04
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quote:
Originally posted by carrman
Yeah and it's the one percenters who complain loud enough that the manufacturers hear us and make corrections from time to time. Quoting Richard Hendrickson, "The rivet counting WILL continue!!" Your train store manager just gave you the typical "good enougher" opinion so many people seem to cling to. If it wasn't for the rivet counters, much of the quality product you see today wouldn't be here.
Dave
Perhaps sometimes true--but the vocal, sometimes rude 1% can also be the group most likely to be ignored by the manufacturers. As my friend also was quick to point out--most of the actual buying is done by the other 99%. His opinion is that the manufacturers would be out of their minds to cater to the 1%, especially in instances when satisfying them would result in a higher price point for the models. (how much higher is a valid question)
I'm not saying that handrails should not be to scale as much as possible, or that flexible paint should not be used--because it should. And correct markings, etc...I want the models to be as accurate as reasonably possible--as does my friend, who is a model railroader first before he's a store manager.
However, there is also a point of diminishing returns where the extra effort to satisfy the 1% is sometimes not feasible. For instance, picking the D&H roadnumbers that did not have the vent shield was probably a good move on the C628's.
Respectfully submitted--
John |
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kemacprr
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 01:10:34
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Bob the Stewart Centuries have always has all wheel drive since the beginning. What the originals did have was 8 wheel electrical pickup. Do the new ones have 12 wheel electrical pickup now ? The new ones do look better than the originals. The original handrails were a pain to keep installed.
------ Ken McCorry |
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Slatepicker
USA
1444 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 09:01:32
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I got two D&H and two LV.
They all had problems with chipped handrails. Any thoughts on what paint to use to fix them?
Two had problems with the rear light only going through the lower lense. Is that something others have seen. What is the cause - fix?
I run DC. Two ran jerkilly. One stopped completely after running for a while. The others seem OK. I guess I need to send the one that stopped back for repair.
I noticed that the reverse direction lights blink on for fractions of a second periodically when the units are running. Some kind of short? Or other electrical problem?
So far I have mixed feelings about the units. If I can get them running smoothly though I think they will be great. |
Delaware and Hudson 1960-1983
Erie Lackawanna 1960-1976
And others 1960-1983 |
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Alco_Fan
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 09:35:51
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It appears that you have issues with Atlas, as they have been the primary target of your replies so far. I can think of other manufacturers with similar issues, yet you only mention Atlas. I'm also wondering why you chose to compare these engines to older Atlas engines and not the latest Atlas Masters which are more comparable in price to the C628 anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by DnHMike
Well this afternoon I did a little research on Hand rail thickness, Here are me results;
Bowser C628 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint. .023 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.001 inch
Bowser U25B Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .027 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.349 inch
Atlas RS-11 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .029 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.523 inch
Atlas RS-1 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .030 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.523 inch
Atlas U23B Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .031 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.697 inch
The Newest RS-3's with "New Handrails" are .021 with one coat of paint. not much smaller...........
Bowser's handrails aren't that bad! I believe they are 2 scale inches. Prototype is 1.5 inches.
At least these have the proper width fuel tank! These handrails are off by maybe one half of a scale inch. The Fuel tank on the Atlas RS11s and RS 36's are off by feet! and let's not get into the handrail size on the RS32/36 GP38-2 or NEW GP39-2, Or the Exhaust stack on a RS-3..
The point is just because it doesn't say Atlas on the box doesn't mean it's not also a great product! I think we as model railroaders are too critical of Manufactures at times. If they only released a product when it was absolutely perfect, we would not have half of the engines or rolling stock that we have today or even a Hobby! I just think it could be much worse!
Mike[;-xmas]
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ACL1099
Western Samoa
1320 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 10:04:40
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A correction offered: unless Alco used larger handrails, prototype size is 1.25 inches as measured on EMD units. Do with that info as you wish. [:-blindfold]
Though not visible in these photos in this thread there's one thing on the PC units that would have been so easy to get right: the lettering style. It's just plain wrong as it is too thick. See for yourself
http://www.bowser-trains.com/New_Products/New%2002_01_08/691-23329.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/pc/pc6303cza.jpg
which will not keep me from buying a sound unit since I'll just remove the lettering and redecal it. Easy. I do like the detailing done by roadname instead of generic detailing.
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navarch2
1749 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2008 : 23:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by DnHMike
Paul Cutler III I'm NOT stating that they are PERFECT in any way. What I'm saying is that they have COME A FAR WAY INTO THE FUTURE, as compaired to the OLD Stewart.......Heck we ALL make mistakes at least they are trying..
Mike
[;-xmas][;-xmas]
...and I was not in any way bashing them. I own three of these Excecutive Line non-sound 628's now.....I have a further 2 non-sound on order, and I have three sound units on order...for a total of eight Bowser 628's. I'm happy with them, obviously, or I would not have spent over $1,100.00 buying them.
I simply pointed out where the issues I saw resided, and have found a fix for virtually every one that did not require a lot of work. I did fix the cab light issue totally now, I did work on the bent rail issue and fixed it easily....and as someone pointed out, I did mis-speak on the drive...it is all 12 wheels driven.....not 8....as was formerly the case. I meant to say 12....you can see my typing in general was a tad off on the post.
My only point was - that as I own multiple SD40-2's from both Athearn and Kato....I'd also buy a well done Atlas C-628...thus my comment that I think there is room for Atlas to create one.
I also by the way have now, two Bowser U25B's, and will but more in the next run of roadnames. |
Bob
Visit the Providence Northern at:
www.providencenorthern.com |
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navarch2
1749 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2008 : 23:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by DnHMike
Well this afternoon I did a little research on Hand rail thickness, Here are me results;
Bowser C628 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint. .023 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.001 inch
Bowser U25B Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .027 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.349 inch
Atlas RS-11 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .029 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.523 inch
Atlas RS-1 Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .030 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.523 inch
Atlas U23B Handrails Base color - one coat of paint .031 inch HO Scale 1-1 scale 2.697 inch
The Newest RS-3's with "New Handrails" are .021 with one coat of paint. not much smaller...........
Bowser's handrails aren't that bad! I believe they are 2 scale inches. Prototype is 1.5 inches.
At least these have the proper width fuel tank! These handrails are off by maybe one half of a scale inch. The Fuel tank on the Atlas RS11s and RS 36's are off by feet! and let's not get into the handrail size on the RS32/36 GP38-2 or NEW GP39-2, Or the Exhaust stack on a RS-3..
The point is just because it doesn't say Atlas on the box doesn't mean it's not also a great product! I think we as model railroaders are too critical of Manufactures at times. If they only released a product when it was absolutely perfect, we would not have half of the engines or rolling stock that we have today or even a Hobby! I just think it could be much worse!
Mike[;-xmas]
For the record...the rails do not turn me off at all...... |
Bob
Visit the Providence Northern at:
www.providencenorthern.com |
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navarch2
1749 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2008 : 00:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by carrman
Yeah and it's the one percenters who complain loud enough that the manufacturers hear us and make corrections from time to time. Quoting Richard Hendrickson, "The rivet counting WILL continue!!" Your train store manager just gave you the typical "good enougher" opinion so many people seem to cling to. If it wasn't for the rivet counters, much of the quality product you see today wouldn't be here.
Dave
there is absolutely nothing wrong with "good enough".....and it is a bit disingenuous to say the current round of protests and input by the 1% folks is the sole cause of the increase in detail we are seeing. It started LONG before the Internet....and is 90% the result of the manufacturers doing what any good company does...improve the product. The MOST basic factor allowing this detail revolution was not input from modelers...it was the advent of CAD and related CAM and 3D modeling capability which allowed manufacturers to more easily produce many variants of a model using drawings and molds that were far more easily created/modified using CAD/CAM as opposed to hand drawing and manually tooling molds.
To be sure, modeler input helped...but don;t take credit for what the manufacturers did....absent modeler input you'd STILL have something close to these models you are seeing today. |
Bob
Visit the Providence Northern at:
www.providencenorthern.com |
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